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Post by Sofia on Sept 22, 2014 16:39:14 GMT 1
Since there have been some questions about what kind of magic we'll have available in this Holt I thought we'd open that up for discussion! What has been decided is that we'll have no "invented" magics, only magic found in or based on canon (i.e. Sand-Shaping might be accepted, since it's based on Rock-Shaping). That said, this is the current magic list, please check it out. Also, here's another magic list with more details from another Holt I'm admining. So, what's in and what's out? Remember to check the Get to know the tribe-thread to see what's already been allowed (not taking anyone's magic away!) Also, do we need defined "this is what this magic can do" for each level available? I.e. weak, average and strong? Or can people estimate on their own what their elf should be capable of? |
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Post by Badger on Sept 22, 2014 16:50:56 GMT 1
Is there a limit of how many magic users the group itself wants in?
One Holt I saw had at least three super-skilled treeshapers, one herbal healer and one gardener -- so, pretty unbalanced what it came to tribal roles.
Of course I do not want to turn anyone away, like "sorry, you can't play a healer, because there is already N number of those".
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Post by Panaetha on Sept 22, 2014 18:46:29 GMT 1
( Sofia, one of your links is wrong and links back to this thread) This is exactly my reluctance about people following family histories when it comes to magic. We've already got two treeshapers (one not introduced), if they both Recognize different elves, we suddenly have the possibility for four treeshapers. I would rather that whoever eventually adopts that child, if they insist on having a magic, they pick one that we don't already have. We have twelve magic elves, eight without (other than sending and/or Gliding due to heredity). Definitely don't wanna turn anyone away, but for kids, I'd rather limit what we have. Looking at the list, there are a few magics I'm not sure why are on the unavailable list. It's not quite fair to say that Anti-Healers are rarely mentally stable. Winnowill isn't the only one. Leetah and Mender have used it. The mental instability comes from using it at inappropriate times. Dunno why we can't black-send; that always struck me as something anyone could do, if their sending ability and emotions ran high enough, but if we're talking about just doing it at will, I can see why it's not allowed. Dunno why blocking isn't allowed. Deep Sense seems OP to me, so I don't care about that. I think Fleshshaping should be allowed in congress with another healer, though I can't imagine where Pan would use it. Mind Snare, Jinking, and Shapeshifting make sense to not be allowed, but on the latter, does this mean that tailed Wavedancers aren't allowed? Mental Shielding should be allowed if we were to allow emotional black-sending. And I've never heard of Sun Channeling before...that seems super OP too. In terms of the linked magics, like the healing-based magics and shaping-magics, it depends on if we want to allow our elves to learn other magics. Can Keleero, being a rockshaper, learn to shape gems? What about metal? What about sand? Conversely, can a metalshaper learn to shape rock? Can we have a metalshaper who isn't a rockshaper? What about a gemshaper who can only shape gems? For another magic, can we have an anti-healer who can't heal? Can a firestarter learn to sun channel? How skilled does a levitator have to be to glide? Could we get, conceivably, a fogshaper who can't shape regular river-water? How much do these linked magics depend on each other, and are they linear? Does one have to know the base magic before learning another? Do we want to have someone who can master all forms of their own magic (aka, a rock/gem/sand/metalshaper, or a water/ice/steam/fogshaper)? |
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Post by Sofia on Sept 22, 2014 19:28:58 GMT 1
Sun Channeling = what Rayek does later in canon when he's shooting people with "light" from his hands. I'm all for changing what's available and not! I basically copy-pasted this list from my other Holt (Survivors of a Lost Holt) which has those other magics unavailable for plot reasons over there. Feel free to argue what should and shouldn't be available and I'll change the list accordingly! As for skills based in others, I would think it would be fun if elves with one magic could develop related magics, for example a Weather Senser developing Weather Control/Wind-Shaping. Also, I think some magics do need another as a 'base' (e.g. Flesh-Shapers needing to know how to Heal to not kill their subject). That said, I've had people play elves who've had the 'base magic' only available for use while using the secondary magic, i.e. a Flesh-Shaper who can only heal while shaping. And that, I think, could make for interesting plot moments. I think we first of all need to think of "what will be most fun for us as players and for developing plot" when we decide what can and can't be done with elfin magic  Also, how useful a magic could be without the 'base magic'. Sand-Shaping I can see working on its own, but Gem- or Metal-Shaping is a little trickier, as there tends to be a lot of rock between elves and gems/metals, so I don't see how that magic would develop "naturally" - but maybe the Rock-Shaping could only work whilst searching for gems or metal? Making it 'weaker' than the magic the elf is specialized in? We would of course also set limits for how many of what kind of magic we'll allow. I do agree that it'll be a bit boring if too many elves have the same magic, even if they use them differently, just as it would be a bit boring if all the elves looked the same or had the same base personality. |
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Post by Sofia on Sept 22, 2014 19:30:39 GMT 1
PS. Fixed the link, thanks for spotting it! Forgot the http://
Also, we could of course have elves who possessed different forms of the same kind of magic (i.e. water/ice/snow/fog-Shaper), but then I'd like them to be better at one form of the elements of their Shaping ability (e.g. best at shaping ice, worst at shaping fog, or the other way around).
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Post by Sofia on Sept 22, 2014 19:35:53 GMT 1
Also also I agree that Anti-Healing doesn't necessary make a Healer mentally unstable. I think that info I based on the earlier comics where it wasn't made clear if Winnowill learnt Anti-Healing because she went mad or not. Later on, in Kings of the Broken Wheel and such, we've gotten to see other Healers cause pain in self-defense and they don't seem to be suffering any ill effects of it. It'll edit that later.
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Post by Panaetha on Sept 22, 2014 20:54:04 GMT 1
Sun Channeling = what Rayek does later in canon when he's shooting people with "light" from his hands. ...I think we first of all need to think of "what will be most fun for us as players and for developing plot" when we decide what can and can't be done with elfin magic Also, how useful a magic could be without the 'base magic'. Sand-Shaping I can see working on its own, but Gem- or Metal-Shaping is a little trickier, as there tends to be a lot of rock between elves and gems/metals, so I don't see how that magic would develop "naturally" - but maybe the Rock-Shaping could only work whilst searching for gems or metal? Making it 'weaker' than the magic the elf is specialized in? We would of course also set limits for how many of what kind of magic we'll allow. I do agree that it'll be a bit boring if too many elves have the same magic, even if they use them differently, just as it would be a bit boring if all the elves looked the same or had the same base personality. See what you mean about Sun Channeling.
With the shaping magic, I think that, for some, the base magic is arbitrary. Sand is just ground up rock, essentially. Why couldn't that be a base magic? Maybe an elf was playing in the sand and it moved how s/he wanted without the use of hands. I think how one would discover what magic they have would depend on their environment. A Go-Back discovering sandshaping would be really odd...but for a Wavedancer, not so much. I think gems and metals could work the way you described...maybe they start with a weak rockshaping skill, but discover that their powers come more easily to them with different forms, like gems and metals. Or maybe it was so weak that they could only sense the rock beneath them, but are able to bring metals and gems to the surface. We could do the same sort of scenario with water; maybe an elf has a hard time shaping fluid water, but frozen water is easier to deal with.
This is what I meant about linear magic...which is what I infer from our list. For both gem and metalshaping, it says, "Good Rock-Shapers can learn to also shape gems/metals." That implies that one has to be a good rockshaper first.
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Post by Sofia on Sept 22, 2014 21:10:37 GMT 1
As I said, I pretty much copy-pasted the magic list from another Holt, which in its turn was copy-pasted from another, very old Holt, before that. I'm all for changing things up and evolving!
I'm thinking of grouping the magic list a bit differently, but I probably won't have time to get that done until this weekend. The discussion can of course continue until and beyond that!
Also, I think environment is very important for an elf's magic to make logical sense. Elves who live in trees tend to have a lot of Tree-Shapers throughout the generations, while the canon Gliders had a lot of Rock-Shapers (living inside a mountain will do that to you) and all but Winnowill could Glide.
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Post by Panaetha on Sept 22, 2014 21:17:06 GMT 1
Heh, yeah. Not meaning to be critical. Just...bull-headed. |
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Post by Sofia on Sept 22, 2014 23:15:14 GMT 1
Not at all! I want people to argue and discuss - it's the best way to build a Holt we'll all have fun in!
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Post by Nettle on Sept 23, 2014 2:13:25 GMT 1
Well, we could I mean make lists of secondary magics that require admin approval, that you for example can only be allowed to have or have your character develop if they have the main magic already. Like if the plot for the holt makes it sensible for Keleero, being a rockshaper, to learn how to gem-shape than maybe he could learn how to gem-shape as part of future plot-arcs. You could rationalise it out as perhaps the elves wanting answers to how the Beacon works, so they ask him, since he's a rockshaper, to example the Beacon more closely. Maybe he learns to gem-shape later on as a result of this.
I mean at some point all of our magic-users are going to need to stretch their skills.
My plant-shaper Nettle has a plethora of seeds with her, and fresh and dried herbs, so that will help with the supplies. She can learn a few things from Juniper too, since he's older, and trade knowledge back and forth. They might discover something new to do with their magics. I dunno. XD.
We could I mean, allow the main magics to be further developed if the plot allows, or the holt requires something new of this or that well within reason. If it's needed, and we can rationalise it, than I'm okay with it. I do agree on the limitations with some things though like the shape-shifting or song-shaping, or whichever magic isn't canon or unusual. I don't know if anyone wants the magics to be limited, it's really up to you guys. I have been in holts where this was the case. It kind of did make the statement that magic was better to have than to be non-magical.
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Post by Sofia on Sept 23, 2014 8:49:30 GMT 1
I think that if limit magic available, we should also limit the roles and skills available, just to avoid the "magic is so special and awesome"-vibes only limiting magic would give off. I say we limit the "specialized" roles and skills, just as we limit the less common magic. Example: all players who wish can have their elf be able to send, as well as bond with an animal they share blood with (actually, in that case, I'd like people to argue why their elf shouldn't have that magic), just as any player can have their elf be more common things like hunters, fishers, gatherers + that the elf at least should have all "basic" skills (more on that later). What I would like to limit is the more specialized roles/skills/magic, because too many of only one things leads to pretty spares story opportunities. I thus suggest limiting magic that isn't "default" for any kind of elves, like the different Shaping magics. That said, while I think we shouldn't have full-on Shapechangers, I think switching between legs and a tail is an okay power to have if you are a sea-elf. A Go-Back style elf with that power, however, makes much less sense. Same with Gliders - Keleero and Vareesi are both from elf groups very similare to the canon Gliders and thus Gliding is as everyday to them as Elf-Sending is to most elves. Same goes with skills and roles. We can't have all our elves be tanners, weavers, crafters, etc. or we'll get a very unbalanced tribe. But you can never have too many hunters/fishers/gatherers because food is a basic need of the tribe that a lot of people need to be working to fill, at all times. Limiting available magic and roles is to make the game more fun and varied, not to hog "all the special stuff" for a few players and I hope that comes across |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 9:09:20 GMT 1
I like it. I had originally for example given Tinder some of Nettle's skills like weaving (baskets and cloth) by hand since she's a tanner, but that was before I knew I was bringing Nettle in, so yeah I edited Tinder's CIS down to remove what I would want Nettle to have i.e weaving and herbal healing.
I agree with the glider and blood-based magics like wolf-bonding or gliding for gliders, since it just makes sense. A glider wouldn't be a glider if they couldn't fly, just like a wolfrider wouldn't really be a wolfrider if they couldn't bond with wolves or the elf-blooded wolves.
I agree with the limitations too. I also like that we're discussing stuff like this, it does make the holt more interesting even outside of RPG. It also gives all of us an opportunity to air matters and pick each other's brains. XD. Thanks Sofia!
Yeah I agree on the skill limit too. We do have a good mix of abilities magical and non-magical amongst the elves already, just no defined roles individually.
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Post by Panaetha on Sept 24, 2014 7:12:43 GMT 1
I 100% agree with limiting magics and skills. I still don't want to turn anyone away...if someone applies with an elf from a dead holt who just so happens to also be a treeshaper, I don't wanna say no. I just don't want any NEW elves adding to what we already have.
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Post by Sofia on Sept 24, 2014 15:58:30 GMT 1
I'll be sure to note clarly in the rules that elves from other RPG Holts get to keep magic they've always had despite limitations otherwise I'm working on a new magic list, as well as limitations, but I'm going go ask the group to take a look at what I've written before I make it "official". I've started by categorizing the many different magic we have into these four categories: Animal magicAnimal-Bonding, Animal Communication, Animal Mimicry, Animal-Sending Body magicAnti-Healing, Flesh-Shaping, Healing, Self-Healing, Shapechanging Mind magicAstral projection, Black-Sending, Blocking, Deep Sense, Finding, Force Shield/Shielding, Gliding, Hypnosis, Jinking, Levitation, Magic Feeling, Mind-Snare, Sending, Shielding/Mind-Healing, Weather Sense ShapingBone/Coral, Fire, Gem, Metal, Plant/Tree, Rock, Water, Weather/Wind The idea behind the categories, other than to make the overview on magic easier to read, is to solve the "inheritence" issue As has been said, we already have many Plant-Shapers. So if Choice and Nettle's child grows to also be a Plant-Shaper we'll be quite Plant-Shaper heavy as a Holt, which unbalances us. Whoever adopts Choice and Nettle's future child will get to choose if they'll grow up to have magic other than the default Elf-Sending, Animal-Bonding and Animal-Sending. Due to the child's parents being who they are, the child will have inheritance for Shaping magic (Nettle's Plant-Shaping) and the player can thus pick a magic in that category. Does this make sense? Also, if the parents of the child only have Sending and Animal-Bonding magic, and there's no other known magic in the parents' families (i.e. no ancestors with magic are mentioned in the History section of their CISs) the child will have no specific inheritance for magic. I'm not sure what we should do if a player adopts a child with no inheritance for magic other than the default magic (Sending, Bonding). Should we allow the player to choose any available magic or make it clear that the child can't develop any? Magic can be fun and all, but I really want to encourage people to play elves without magic other than Sending and Bonding. It makes for a more fun, balanced game if not all of our elves have magic. And non-magic users can of course have special talents anyways, like being wonderfully tanners or skilled acrobats or what have you |
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Also, how useful a magic could be without the 'base magic'. Sand-Shaping I can see working on its own, but Gem- or Metal-Shaping is a little trickier, as there tends to be a lot of rock between elves and gems/metals, so I don't see how that magic would develop "naturally" - but maybe the Rock-Shaping could only work whilst searching for gems or metal? Making it 'weaker' than the magic the elf is specialized in?
