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Post by Sofia on Sept 21, 2014 8:47:16 GMT 1
I have two questions I'd like to discuss:
1) Can for example wolf-blooded elves bond with wolves that don't have elf-blood? The canon example I was thinking of is Warfrost and Cutter, though Warfrost could of course have some elf-blood due to Timmain. I was thinking it could be done, but that those wolves couldn't send or hear sending. What do you think?
2) Can an elf have more than one bond-friend? We're in a bit of a unique situation with elves and bonds getting separated (e.g. Badger and her wolf). Maybe that could leave the elf "open" to a bonding, and when their old bond-friend maybe eventually shows up (it can happen) they'd have two.
Thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 9:54:03 GMT 1
I have no idea, honestly. It is probably possible, provided the wolf was trained like a horse I think. They'd likely also be very unpredictable being wild, rather than even slightly tamed by the additional loyalty of an elf/wolf-bond. Bonding magic would help, although Timmain wolves back in the day probably did inter-breed with wild wolves. I mean you do have some of them breaking off and leaving during the two tribe split. Canon never really covers what happens to the break aways, or Timmorn too who I think bred with wolves and elves.
The bonding due to the minimal elfblood could be dormant, thus they can be 'trained' and or kept as a bond, but yeah wouldn't be able to wolf-send. Perhaps it could be more empathic? The elf senses the wolf's mood, but can't read it with words, so the sending thing is either garbled or just impossible.
I dunno really.
Secondly, I think it is likely possible for a dual-bond, although you have to consider that another bond, and the returning one might not get along. Also are we assuming the Beacon calls bonds without their elves? I thought it was rescuing elves or is it targeting the elf blood in bonds too?
The second bonding could be just temporary too. I mean I would think the original bond would take precedence over a new one, plus the bond itself would be older, and more mature than a new one, thus the stronger connection. The second one might fade out once the new one re-established, unless the bond is to ensure breeding partners among the wolves, or other bonds, as in new stock. Which would make sense, although I question the need for an elf to have two bonds. It's more hunters, yes, but also more food that has to go around.
If it could be played out or explained logically I'd accept it, otherwise it seems unnecessary or excessive.
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Post by Sofia on Sept 21, 2014 10:18:29 GMT 1
Yes, the Beacon "rescues" both elves and elf-blooded animals. It's programmed to get anything that contains traces of elf - that was good for bringing back pieces of the Palace if they broke off and happened to take a High One's limbs with it (accidents do happen even in space) so the limb could be reattached.
That is the IC explanation. The OOC explanation is that I didn't want every elf bringing a bond-friend here to have to be touching said bond-friend when they're tansported. It would just be too unlikely that everyone had been riding or petting their bond just before teleporting.
Pets and other animal companions, on the other hand, have to be touching the "rescued" elf to be teleported along to Beacon Call.
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Post by Badger on Sept 21, 2014 12:14:43 GMT 1
I would like to think that wolf-blooded elves can bond with wolves with no elf-blood -- although the interaction and the relationship can be quite a lot harder than with a wolf with elf-blood.
On the second question, I would say that the answer is no. Dual bonds are not possible. I once asked about double Recognition in the EQ page on Facebook and Richrad told us that while it could be technically possible, it is not advised. I would suppose that it is kind of same with animal bonding - only one at a time, if possible. I would say that, for example, the part of Badger's soul that has bonded with Trotter is still occupied by Trotter, and therefore she can't bond with another wolf at this moment. (Plus, there is a possibility to use this feature wrong. I know of someone who had at least 12 bond wolves because of a bullshit reason, Tam knows who I am talking about *coughcough*)
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Post by Greywing on Sept 21, 2014 18:18:07 GMT 1
I agree with no dual bonds. I think that the bond would fade over time, in Badger and Trotter's case, and she could bond again.
I do think an elf could bond with a non-elf blooded animal...they just wouldn't be able to send to it, and it would be a more animalistic bond. The canon bonds only rarely send anyway...I think Nightrunner and Blackfell are the only ones. And even then, they were pretty disjointed.
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Post by Sofia on Sept 21, 2014 19:42:33 GMT 1
Okay, so if an elf who's arrived here stays here a certain amount of time, their bond with their old bond-friend will fade away and be open to a new bond, but until then they can't bond with a new animal. How long should the fading take? Are talking a week, a year, several years? What would work best for us players? And yes, having more than one bond available can lead to that kind of slippery slope. More than one animal tagging along with you I think we shall reserve for people with Teir's Animal Mimicry magic
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Post by Greywing on Sept 21, 2014 19:57:16 GMT 1
I was looking through the Gatherum (as I am apt to do) and it says that bonding with animals who have no elf blood is not possible. If we want to say screw that and go with a weaker bond idea, that would be fine with me...otherwise, we'd need to import elf-blooded bonds for our elves, which could be problematic to the ecosystem.
I think fading would be...closer to a year. Elves can bond again pretty fast after a wolf's death, but there's no hope of that old bond coming back. I think it would ultimately depend on the elf...if they're more accepting of being in the BC area and accept that their bond won't be coming through the Beacon, they could conceivably rebond faster, but if they hold on to hope, they won't.
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Post by Juniper on Sept 21, 2014 19:57:59 GMT 1
Maybe a year? I would not like days, because then I would have to hurry to get Trotter on board. Or maybe he gets on board during the current thread, it would most likely cheer Badger up.
Hey, also a word of warning with Animal Mimicry. The character I mentioned to have at least 12 bonds was one with Animal Mimicry, and majority of the other players found the character ridiculously overpowered. You might want to add some limits of how many animals can be bonded or "bonded" to an animal mimic at one time.
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Post by Greywing on Sept 21, 2014 19:59:39 GMT 1
Heh, yeah, we're a little jumpy at any Animal Mimicry. I think it's worth noting that Teir's wolves were SO dependent on him that I don't think they operated like a regular pack, and I think that they would have a hard time fending for themselves long term and integrating into a pack without Teir. (in the instance Mia and I are referring to, the character's wolves operated like their own pack and were fully self-sufficient, which seems to go against the behavior of Teir's wolves vs. Wolfrider wolves)
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Post by Sofia on Sept 21, 2014 20:08:53 GMT 1
I agree, no magic used in "illogical ways". That just leads to powergaming and a boring time had for all. No Plant-Shapers making trees walk either As for simply being overpowered if not illogical, I've limited the magic levels to "weak, weak/average, average/strong" and "strong" because of this. I always think of elves like Winnowill, Teir, Leetah, etc. as having an even higher level of magic I call "strong/excellent" and "excellent", and I don't like leaving such magic available to players' elves since it unbalances the whole game.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 0:41:33 GMT 1
Interesting, I do think that Teir, Leetah, and Winnowill are on a different level than say Redlance magically. The former are all purebloods except I think Teir, though not sure on that completely, the latter not, plus their magics are more obscure. Redlance's plantshaping is more practical for a wolfrider, they can use it for everything since Cutter's tribe are forest dwelling. It'd be less useful say if they lived in a cloud, A - No dirt, B - No plants, but in a forest yeah it makes perfect sense.
The animal-mimicry thing might only work if you're trying to lure an animal in to eat, hunt or tame. Otherwise it'd be fairly pointless. Winnowill's blacksending is useful, but not if a beast can't send or receive sending. I wonder, does anyone know if she ever used it on a non-elf?
It would have been useful, maybe, on Madcoil, but Win is crazy.
'Nuff said.
I do agree on the single-bonding. It does make sense. I could accept an elf having a bond by blood or magic and having a pet too, like I dunno, a wolfrider has a wolf, and a pet treewee they rescued from an injury. The wolfrider would be bonded to the wolf, but may have the treewee as a pet kind of like a cat but with less cat and more tree-squirrel rat thing.
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Post by Panaetha on Sept 22, 2014 1:04:12 GMT 1
*laughs* Healing is anything but obscure...and Winnowill's magics have been perverted. I think astral projection is probably a bit much for anyone here, however. And I think Redlance's magical skills are equal to the other examples. Think about how much he's shaped for the tribe...multiple father trees, the tree dens they dwelled in after Rayek took the Palace, but also weapons and defenses. His skill is insane because he gets a lot of practice. And I think the father trees went up pretty quickly, because where would the elves have stayed otherwise? It's quite an undertaking.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 1:35:24 GMT 1
Healing can be obscure when you consider that other magics like flesh and bone-shaping extend from it. Leetah also seemed to share empathy with her patients when she healed, a trance-like state, so that too would be difficult to understand for an ordinary elf. I remember that she tried to help Strongbow this way, but it didn't work.
>.>.
I've never actually read of the healing magics being well-defined beyond repairing injuries.
They can do alot of help or damage with the anti-healing causing pain too, so it's quite a few odd things rather than just one kind of magic. I hadn't thought of that before either.
How interesting.
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Post by Panaetha on Sept 22, 2014 1:46:51 GMT 1
I think that just makes the extension magics obscure. *chuckles* But not even those are obscure. We just don't see them as often because Winnowill has tainted the view the elves have of them, and they're not...practical. Not many elves need to flesh/bone shape in their everyday lives. Like, I can name a handful of healers off the top of my head. Leetah. Skimback. Snakeskin. Rain. Mender. Winnowill. Willowgreen. And the first three of those can shape flesh and bone, at least in tandem...Winnowill is the only one who's done it on her own (Leetah probably could, but doesn't). The mental healing thing seems unique to Leetah, which is interesting. It has a name, but I can't think of it at the moment. And then there's the anti-healing, which at least Leetah and Mender can do (not including Winnowill because she does all those things and is overpowered anyway). It's definitely a very powerful kind of magic, and with all the linked magics, I think that it would be important to distinguish between what a healer-type has, and what they don't...and their skills with each. Reefshadow's bone shaping, for example, confuses me, because he would HAVE to be a healer of some sort for it to not kill someone.
Can't think of more than two treeshapers, though. Only one fireshaper. Three rockshapers. One shielder. One who can block the magic of others. Two magic feeling elves. Those are much easier to deal with, as they don't have other linked magics (well, rockshaping does, but metalshaping isn't dependent on rockshaping like fleshshaping is dependent on healing), but would certainly be more obscure in canon.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 5:51:34 GMT 1
Yeah, you're right. Magic is kinda weird, huh, in the EQ universe. I keep thinking now that with the anti-healing and blacksending and the narly magics that Winnowill had or used, might have been less 'she has it' and more that she learned to use the abilities she already had to manipulate others over centuries. I mean she was sane once, and spent who knows how many years going nutty, 'cause she could only 'pull wings off flies all-day' to quote Bron from Game of Thrones. She had to entertain herself somehow, so manipulating her tribemates it was, and she became an expert at it, which made her over time the perfect villainess.
She's actually scarier than the Joker from Batman.
He always did give me the creeps.
True on the treeshaper thing, and the rest of the magics too. I just always found like it odd when holts put in magics I'd never heard of, or allowed the use of like Dreamweaving or others. Can't think of an example at the moment. XD. Too brain fried.
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